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Thread: Is god a delusion?

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    Virtuoso Intellectual Pirate's Avatar
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    Default Is god a delusion?

    i am going to use rational arguments and logical reason to prove that the existence of any god or gods is a false claim.

    Yes, I require irrefutable evidence to believe in something. If I told you that leprechauns existed, you would call me a liar and I would absolutely deserve it, and your lack of belief in leprechauns would be completely rational. The same is true for the claim of God's existence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Extraordinary claims do not become ordinary simply by their repetition by the religious.

    If I am to believe in anything extraordinary, I will require extraordinary evidence. Faith is not noble or something to be prized. Believing in something for which no evidence exists is a dangerous condition. Like if I were to believe that I was impervious to fire, I would then light myself on fire and die. Why then would I die if I believed I was fire-resistant? Because my beliefs did not have accurate foundations in reality. Belief alone has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

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    Moderator Q' lypse's Avatar
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    beliefs are a problem. check my signature. its a cop out!

    your 2nd paragraph reminds me of something funny, what is it called, the flying spaghetti monster, or God something like that.
    http://www.venganza.org/

    it is an exact parallel to the god belief
    When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important.
    .........Jiddu Krishnamurti

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    Virtuoso Kwame Nyame's Avatar
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    What is reality?

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    Cognoscenti ® Lady √ Macbeth ©'s Avatar
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    People are very blind when it comes to GOD! They only want to accept and believe whatever fits their understanding. One can know something and yet not believe it!

    Extraordinary evidence of God is everywhere but when people have an understanding problem they tend to flaw what they do not grasp.
    We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality. Einstein

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose". Elliot

    Character is higher than intellect. ~Emerson

    “The best thing I have is the knife from Fatal Attraction. I hung it in my kitchen. It's my way of saying, Don't mess with me.”
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    Great Spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds.
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    Cognoscenti ® Lady √ Macbeth ©'s Avatar
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    Faith is not noble or something to be prized.
    That is your opinion! We all live our lives by faith and yet still we have a problem with faith. It takes faith and believes for a person to pursue his or her degree. It takes faith for anyone to enter a long-term relationship, it takes faith to cross the streets, it takes faith to fly in a plane across the oceans where two men are in control of you getting to your destination safely, and the list goes on. Everything is a risk, but with faith we proceed and hope for the best.

    The Christian faith is not about venturing blindly, it is the fact that we know (have information or understand) and choose to believe.
    (accept).
    We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality. Einstein

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose". Elliot

    Character is higher than intellect. ~Emerson

    “The best thing I have is the knife from Fatal Attraction. I hung it in my kitchen. It's my way of saying, Don't mess with me.”
    Glenn
    Great Spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds.
    Einstein

    :

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    Cognoscenti ® Lady √ Macbeth ©'s Avatar
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    Reality is God Himself. Anyone who choose not to accept (believe) that is the one with the delusion problem.
    We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality. Einstein

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose". Elliot

    Character is higher than intellect. ~Emerson

    “The best thing I have is the knife from Fatal Attraction. I hung it in my kitchen. It's my way of saying, Don't mess with me.”
    Glenn
    Great Spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds.
    Einstein

    :

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    Virtuoso Intellectual Pirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ® Lady √ Macbeth © View Post
    The Christian faith is not about venturing blindly, it is the fact that we know (have information or understand) and choose to believe (accept).
    Absolute garbage. Faith is an illogical belief in the happening of the improbable- Sigmund Freud

    I would rather not say that God is not real, because not real is a positive assertion of fact and has a burden of proof. Rather I would say God is an unfalsifiable hypothesis and cannot be proven not to exist. Much like if I say I can fly when no one is looking or that I own an invisible hamster that can't be measured or sensed in any way, you can't disprove any of it. But just like God, there is insufficient evidence to claim the existence of God. I cannot conclude God is not real because you cannot disprove (or prove) something that cannot be falsified. I can however lack a belief in God because I see no more evidence for God than I do for Zeus, Allah or my invisible hamster.

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    Cognoscenti ® Lady √ Macbeth ©'s Avatar
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    Now what you are saying is rubbish! Complete hogwash because though you went on to clearly state God's existence cannot be disprove yet you said
    there is insufficient evidence to claim the existence of God.
    That begs the question: what are some of the insufficient evidence to claim the existence of God do you have? It goes right back to a paradoxical statement.

    Unfalsifiable (let me remind you the definition): not able to be proven false, but not necessarily true.

    Unfalsifiable hypothesis (let me remind or inform you): not capable of being proved false <unfalsifiable hypotheses>

    Those two definitions are simply asking for: verification. It is not stating that God's inexistence or existence can or cannot be proven. It is either black or white--not in between. Hypothesis is just an assumption or idea! Unfalsifiable is for persons who are confused and are reluctant to the obvious truth (i.e. there is a God)!

    Quite frankly, there cannot be a harmonization of the only application being both true and false. If a thing is true, then it cannot be false. Equally, if something is false, then it certainly cannot be true. The "unfalsifiable” is out of the picture! It is either true or not. You cannot be dismissive in the regard of God's existence due to the fact that Science is incapable of granting you an answer. People tend to rest in the so-called unburden of not having to cogitate or ever knowing the real truth of what they cannot grasp (i.e. defeatists).
    Last edited by ® Lady √ Macbeth ©; 1st May 2011 at 04:26 AM.
    We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality. Einstein

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose". Elliot

    Character is higher than intellect. ~Emerson

    “The best thing I have is the knife from Fatal Attraction. I hung it in my kitchen. It's my way of saying, Don't mess with me.”
    Glenn
    Great Spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds.
    Einstein

    :

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    Cognoscenti ® Lady √ Macbeth ©'s Avatar
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    By the way, your requirement is not doing you any justice as you are holding yourself back from seeing what is irrefutable about God and His nature.
    We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality. Einstein

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose". Elliot

    Character is higher than intellect. ~Emerson

    “The best thing I have is the knife from Fatal Attraction. I hung it in my kitchen. It's my way of saying, Don't mess with me.”
    Glenn
    Great Spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds.
    Einstein

    :

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    Moderator Q' lypse's Avatar
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    Im enjoying this. Keep it coming..




    IP, your rebuttal
    When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important.
    .........Jiddu Krishnamurti

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    Cognoscenti ® Lady √ Macbeth ©'s Avatar
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    Oh! Do not forget to answer Kwame's question
    What is reality?
    @ Pirate!
    We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality. Einstein

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose". Elliot

    Character is higher than intellect. ~Emerson

    “The best thing I have is the knife from Fatal Attraction. I hung it in my kitchen. It's my way of saying, Don't mess with me.”
    Glenn
    Great Spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds.
    Einstein

    :

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    Cognoscenti ® Lady √ Macbeth ©'s Avatar
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    I am appalled by some people's blindness!
    We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality. Einstein

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose". Elliot

    Character is higher than intellect. ~Emerson

    “The best thing I have is the knife from Fatal Attraction. I hung it in my kitchen. It's my way of saying, Don't mess with me.”
    Glenn
    Great Spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds.
    Einstein

    :

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    Virtuoso Intellectual Pirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ® Lady √ Macbeth © View Post
    That begs the question: what are some of the insufficient evidence to claim the existence of God do you have?.
    Senseless question but i will use a layman's intellect to put the kibosh on your wry logic.

    There is no evidence that god exists. Seeing is believing. If he exists then why doesn't he come down to earth and show himself to us. If he exists then why does he allow millions of innocents to be killed. If he exists and has all these majestic superpowers, then why doesn't he do something about wars. Instead, he, if he exists at all, just sits around and treats the whole thing as an over elaborate joke. If he exists then why doesn't he do something about poverty and suffering. If he exists then he would care and something would be done. Nothing has been done. Therefore not only does he not exist but is also a mass murderer and an implacable nazi sadist. god does not exist. End of story.

    All those two definitions are asking for is: verification. It is not stating that God's inexistence or existence can or cannot be proven. It is either black or white--not in between. Hypothesis is just an assumption or idea! Unfalsifiable is for persons who are confused and are reluctant to the obvious truth (i.e. there is a God)!
    You type a lot but don't really make much sense.

    If a divine being can be defined, you can examine its definition for consistency. If it's inconsistent/contradictory you can discount it. If it can not be defined then it can not be known and is thus useless. If it has a consistent definition and that definition states it as supernatural, then it is by definition non-empirical and can not be verified by observation.

    Quite frankly, there cannot be a harmonization of the only application being both true and false. If a thing is true, then it cannot be false. Equally, if something is false, then it certainly cannot true. The "unfalsifiable” is out of the picture! It is either true or not. You cannot be dismissive in the regard of God's existence due to the fact that Science is incapable of granting you an answer. People tend to rest in the so-called unburden of not having to cogitate or ever knowing the real truth of what they cannot grasp (i.e. defeatists).
    I do not know what kinda drugs you are on. Let me debunk your a priori reasoning using a more polished and refined intellect.

    If all humans suddenly ceased to exist my bicycle would still exist, a house would still exist, light would still exist, animals would still exist. All these things could be sensed by another animal. BECAUSE THOSE THINGS EXIST WITH OR WITHOUT HUMANS! An animal could not sense god because he doesn't exist. See how silly your harmonisation theory sounds?

    "Chewing books and pouring them on forums doesn't make one smart" Your thinking is seriously flawed and almost pass off as a two year old throwing tantrums. Please present your thoughts as an adult and stop bombarding us with plethora of unnecessary texts subterfuge. Keep your argument simple, short and smart. We are not writing a textbook. Just the facts please!
    Last edited by Intellectual Pirate; 29th April 2011 at 12:55 PM.

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    Napoleon Agyei
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    Just if we could tone down the language to a more friendly style. We certainly will disagree but can still have our debates done in a better manner without having to tongue-lash each other.

    But then,
    There is no evidence that god exists. Seeing is believing. If he exists then why doesn't he come down to earth and show himself to us.
    Consistence demands that Intellectual cannot believe anything which is invisible to the eye. A follow-up question may be whether or not Intellectual belies in energy, intellect, air, knowledge, etc since all these do not wear tangible material expressions? Do you believe in air exists, Pirate? But you've never seen it!
    Fact that you don't see something or never seen something cannot mean they do not exist. We never saw air before, but air exists. We see the effects of the air everyday. In the same way, though you have not seen God, He exist. What you should ask for is evidence to that effect which abounds and available to anyone who is interested to find. Man is not made of only six human sense, eye, ear, touch, kenestetic, taste. These are just the physical windows. Nor is man just about the intellect, will and emotions. These are just the windows of the soul. Man, apart from the body and the soul, is also a Spirit. When you engage your Spirit (with your soul and body) to a humble search for truth about the existence of God, you will encounter abundant Spiritual experiences with the Supreme One. It is good to engage our soul and body. I have experienced God myself. He is with me in my happy moments. He answers when I call and delivers me from predicaments. Most times, He does not allow me at all to even call, but as soon as the need registers in my consciousness He meets it. In other words, He consults the content of my heart and the intents of my mind to kick. I have experienced the wonders of God in my Education, Finances, Relationship and every part of my life. And God knows these things I say are true and not mischievous at all. God is ready to give everyone that will seeks Him a personal experience.

    If Intellectual does not belief in the existence of God, then can he share with us his explanations about the origin of the universe and of man? We are interested to know your understanding about the origin on man and the universe. I'll be ready to submit some evidence apart from my personal experiences with Him if you so desire.

  15. #15

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    IP .... words are only signpost ...... never the real thing ..... now wat the word god points to in general in today's society is a masculine spirit ..... there is a seed of separatism in the sense that 1 can really stand in front of god - two masses facing each other... one god, the other the person ...... now god has these qualities of omniscient, omnipresent and all knowing but there has been a seed of separatism in how the mind perceives its relationship with its definition of god....

    goddesses rule mythology until the overthrown of the matriarchy by patriarchy hence god being a masculine .....

    my definition and understanding of the word god has changed.....

    god is the sum of all ...... interplanetary mind/intelligence, sum of all the energies ...... the sum of all the unseen, seen and in between(connects seen and unseen) ..... nothing exist outside god .....
    the actuality of god is not really bordered by wat the mind thinks or does not think about god ......

    a simple example that helped my mind in understanding this is ....
    draw a circle and put existence in that circle .... seen, unseen and in between ... thus .... physical universe with bodies, sand water, spiritual world, metaphysical etc are all in the circle ..... the circle is god ..... nothing exist outside of it ...... that means beliefs, duality, devil, good, bad, imagination, thought, christian, muslim, everything is in the circle ......

    with this path of understanding i came to realize that everything is valid and its existence in wateva dimension is its proof of validity ..... so then it comes down to how u want to lead ur life ... wat is functional to the life ur choose to lead ..... what colours and brushes do u chooses to paint ur life with and u worry less and less about wat others think or choose in the sense that you cannot believe why others do not choose ur path or that your path is the only true way ...... that is spiritual arrogance IMHO .....

    your own physical body can also be used as a good example .... your body is made up of trillions of cells .... no physical part of your body exist or is separated from ur body as a whole .... for example your nose is not in the basement of ur house while your body as a whole is in the bedroom on the second floor ..... there are heart cells, brain cells, liver cells etc ..... all different versions of the same stuff ........ now it will be strange for heart cells to think of the body as a mass outside of themselves in a way that the heart cells can stand before the body because the heart cells are a part of the body, the heart cell combined with other cells make the body ... all the cells, the sum of all the cells make the body .....

    this is the definition and understanding of god im working with at the moment .... others are working with their own valid definitions and understanding.
    Last edited by Quophi Aletse; 29th April 2011 at 04:49 PM.
    statistics are what other people have chosen to make real.

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    Moderator Q' lypse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quophi Aletse View Post
    IP .... words are only signpost ...... never the real thing ..... now wat the word god points to in general in today's society is a masculine spirit ..... there is a seed of separatism in the sense that 1 can really stand in front of god - two masses facing each other... one god, the other the person ...... now god has these qualities of omniscient, omnipresent and all knowing but there has been a seed of separatism in how the mind perceives its relationship with its definition of god....

    goddesses rule mythology until the overthrown of the matriarchy by patriarchy hence god being a masculine .....

    my definition and understanding of the word god has changed.....

    god is the sum of all ...... interplanetary mind/intelligence, sum of all the energies ...... the sum of all the unseen, seen and in between(connects seen and unseen) ..... nothing exist outside god .....
    the actuality of god is not really bordered by wat the mind thinks or does not think about god ......

    a simple example that helped my mind in understanding this is ....
    draw a circle and put existence in that circle .... seen, unseen and in between ... thus .... physical universe with bodies, sand water, spiritual world, metaphysical etc are all in the circle ..... the circle is god ..... nothing exist outside of it ...... that means beliefs, duality, devil, good, bad, imagination, thought, christian, muslim, everything is in the circle ......

    with this path of understanding i came to realize that everything is valid and its existence in wateva dimension is its proof of validity ..... so then it comes down to how u want to lead ur life ... wat is functional to the life ur choose to lead ..... what colours and brushes do u chooses to paint ur life with and u worry less and less about wat others think or choose in the sense that you cannot believe why others do not choose ur path or that your path is the only true way ...... that is spiritual arrogance IMHO .....

    your own physical body can also be used as a good example .... your body is made up of trillions of cells .... no physical part of your body exist or is separated from ur body as a whole .... for example your nose is not in the basement of ur house while your body as a whole is in the bedroom on the second floor ..... there are heart cells, brain cells, liver cells etc ..... all different versions of the same stuff ........ now it will be strange for heart cells to think of the body as a mass outside of themselves in a way that the heart cells can stand before the body because the heart cells are a part of the body, the heart cell combined with other cells make the body ... all the cells, the sum of all the cells make the body .....

    this is the definition and understanding of god im working with at the moment .... others are working with their own valid definitions and understanding.
    Good analogy brother minister. Never heard it put this way quite like this. Put it in this Sunday's sermon, I will tell aunty Alaba to look for verses in the good book to go with it.
    When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important.
    .........Jiddu Krishnamurti

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    Moderator Q' lypse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon Agyei View Post
    Just if we could tone down the language to a more friendly style. We certainly will disagree but can still have our debates done in a better manner without having to tongue-lash each other.

    But then, Consistence demands that Intellectual cannot believe anything which is invisible to the eye. A follow-up question may be whether or not Intellectual belies in energy, intellect, air, knowledge, etc since all these do not wear tangible material expressions? Do you believe in air exists, Pirate? But you've never seen it!
    Fact that you don't see something or never seen something cannot mean they do not exist. We never saw air before, but air exists. We see the effects of the air everyday. In the same way, though you have not seen God, He exist. What you should ask for is evidence to that effect which abounds and available to anyone who is interested to find. Man is not made of only six human sense, eye, ear, touch, kenestetic, taste. These are just the physical windows. Nor is man just about the intellect, will and emotions. These are just the windows of the soul. Man, apart from the body and the soul, is also a Spirit. When you engage your Spirit (with your soul and body) to a humble search for truth about the existence of God, you will encounter abundant Spiritual experiences with the Supreme One. It is good to engage our soul and body. I have experienced God myself. He is with me in my happy moments. He answers when I call and delivers me from predicaments. Most times, He does not allow me at all to even call, but as soon as the need registers in my consciousness He meets it. In other words, He consults the content of my heart and the intents of my mind to kick. I have experienced the wonders of God in my Education, Finances, Relationship and every part of my life. And God knows these things I say are true and not mischievous at all. God is ready to give everyone that will seeks Him a personal experience.

    If Intellectual does not belief in the existence of God, then can he share with us his explanations about the origin of the universe and of man? We are interested to know your understanding about the origin on man and the universe. I'll be ready to submit some evidence apart from my personal experiences with Him if you so desire.
    The problem is, usually people wanna see the God of the bible. The God that made things happen, that people were scared of in the old testament. People want to see that HE god, you feel me? Where is the evidence of that God? And can tell us the meaning of soul and spirit?
    When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important.
    .........Jiddu Krishnamurti

  18. #18
    Napoleon Agyei
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    I suggest that our brother Q' lipse (Quophi Aletse) uses only one account so that we can have a naturally occurring forum and true discussions.

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    Napolean you got it wrong bro. Quophi is not Qlypse. Not sure where you got that from. Your assumption is totally misplaced my brother.

  20. #20
    Napoleon Agyei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    Napolean you got it wrong bro. Quophi is not Qlypse. Not sure where you got that from. Your assumption is totally misplaced my brother.
    I rather expected a response from the person in question. Or would our brother "Neo" be ready to take some be cross-examination questions on his behalf?

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon Agyei View Post
    I suggest that our brother Q' lipse (Quophi Aletse) uses only one account so that we can have a naturally occurring forum and true discussions.
    ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ........ i laff tire .... hahahahhahahahahahaha

    where is Q ... why will kwame be saying this if he was adjei??? lololol ....

    anyway mr. or miss napoleon adjei ..... im sorry qlyspe and quophi aletse are causing an unnatural occuring forum and false discussion(watever that means) but i dont think your suggestion will be heeded ...... thanks for it anyways .....
    statistics are what other people have chosen to make real.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    Napolean you got it wrong bro. Quophi is not Qlypse. Not sure where you got that from. Your assumption is totally misplaced my brother.
    ..... lolol neo u dey mind him or her ......
    statistics are what other people have chosen to make real.

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    Moderator Q' lypse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quophi Aletse View Post
    ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ........ i laff tire .... hahahahhahahahahahaha

    where is Q ... why will kwame be saying this if he was adjei??? lololol ....
    Karma is a bit,ch, ain't it? lol
    When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important.
    .........Jiddu Krishnamurti

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    Moderator Q' lypse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon Agyei View Post
    I rather expected a response from the person in question. Or would our brother "Neo" be ready to take some be cross-examination questions on his behalf?
    You see, Neo is one of the Gods of this website so he knows these two guys are not the same person.. Chalay, lets continue the discussion/debate...Q' lypse is not suffering from Multiple personality disorder or the other way round for quophi.
    When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important.
    .........Jiddu Krishnamurti

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Q' lypse View Post
    Karma is a bit,ch, ain't it? lol
    lolololol ....
    statistics are what other people have chosen to make real.

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