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Thread: An answer to what really happens after death?

  1. #1
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    Default An answer to what really happens after death?

    They say in order to die one must suffer a heart failure of some sort! The nucleus of the cells within the heart interact rigorously with other cellular components to battle against time to reverse the ultimate reaction resulting in what we fear the most. But what has been written must do done, right? The passing then occurs and to the living, it’s an extremely sad moment and unpleasant experience to witness. The thought of never being able to speak to them again is daunting and indeed emotionally excruciating. The dead on the other would have literally stopped. But stopped in what sense?

    There are many theories behind what happens after death. The famous Christian/Islam version says it’s simply heaven or hell, depending on what the person did on earth. Is it the Buddhists that believe in reincarnation? Atheists on the other hand believe that just as an animal dies and that’s the end, so is it the end when a human dies (eg Richard Dawkins); simply because we are also animals. Nice and simple conclusion if you’d asked me! But the question is, is it really that simple? If we start from a simple notion that humans are not as simple as animals and the fact that we have extraordinary capabilities in comparison to other animals, could anything else surrounding our capabilities and existence be that simple? No one yet, as far as my memory can serve me, has been declared officially dead (say for about a week), come back and told the story of the “other side”! If they have, then they where either in coma of some sort or hibernated for the period!

    OK, let’s get out our thinking caps now. If highly intelligent scientists over decades of research (which only higher animals have the capability of doing) have been able to show that our solar system is not the only system in the galaxy and even in the universe, would it be prudent to disregard this? I suppose disregarding this is probably the easier option! But if we decide not to disregard it, can we then suddenly extrapolate this finding and say when we die we end up in another galaxy? It seems that at the moment, instant, split second that a person finally passes on, it’s as if a wall of incomprehensible size is made instantly between “this world” and “the next”. Maybe that’s why we cannot understand death as a whole.

    TBC
    Your comments welcomed

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    Man is constantly developing medicines and systems to aid him prolong his life. L’Oreal and Oil of Olay are forever pushing barriers to make even better anti-ageing creams for us. I guess we’re all not happy to die (just yet), except for the few who vouch for euthanasia in uncompromising situations. Ok, back to basics; because we do not know what really happens after death we either completely erase what could lie ahead after death from our minds or we devise amazing and impressive theories of life after death. Scientists are predicting that in less than three decades, the thoughts of humans can be downloaded onto a computer (American Institute of Robotics). With cryogenics as a rapidly increasing “fashion” for the rich to ‘return to earth’ in the future, we may end up having the same faces and the same people with the same thoughts in the future. It’ll be like old times. What is the world coming to as they say!

    If we consider two theories for a moment and then try to combine the two, we just might end up with a solution:

    Theory 1: Every living thing has a thermal and electromagnetic signature. The signatures for humans have a more specific coding reference than other living organisms and are also specific to the individual human. Stay with me! Should the human pass, these signatures are immediately translated into another realm via what one may describe as cosmic cum celestial synapse. It is at this synapse that the individual translates into the “next world”.

    Theory 2: Dimensions; If a communication strategy is established between a 2D being (eg cartoon) and 1D being (straight line) how would the 2D being explain the presence of ‘area’ to the 1D being? Baring in mind that in 2D, we have both length (L) and width (W) whereas in 1D we only have length (L). As Mr 1D has never experienced width before and cannot comprehend what it could possibly be, all attempts made by Mr 2D to explain ‘area’ would fail. In the same way, if a 3D being (real world or man) tries to explain volume (L x W x H) to Mr 2D he cannot simply comprehend it. Volume is absolutely impossible and ludicrous in Mr 2D’s world.
    Could it therefore not be that other beings exist in and around us but because we cannot comprehend or have the sense to know, we assume they are not there?


    Let try combining Theory 1 and 2 to see what we come up with…………

  3. #3
    Virtuoso Kwame Nyame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter1 View Post
    They say in order to die one must suffer a heart failure of some sort! The nucleus of the cells within the heart interact rigorously with other cellular components to battle against time to reverse the ultimate reaction resulting in what we fear the most. But what has been written must do done, right? The passing then occurs and to the living, it’s an extremely sad moment and unpleasant experience to witness. The thought of never being able to speak to them again is daunting and indeed emotionally excruciating. The dead on the other would have literally stopped. But stopped in what sense?

    There are many theories behind what happens after death. The famous Christian/Islam version says it’s simply heaven or hell, depending on what the person did on earth. Is it the Buddhists that believe in reincarnation? Atheists on the other hand believe that just as an animal dies and that’s the end, so is it the end when a human dies (eg Richard Dawkins); simply because we are also animals. Nice and simple conclusion if you’d asked me! But the question is, is it really that simple? If we start from a simple notion that humans are not as simple as animals and the fact that we have extraordinary capabilities in comparison to other animals, could anything else surrounding our capabilities and existence be that simple? No one yet, as far as my memory can serve me, has been declared officially dead (say for about a week), come back and told the story of the “other side”! If they have, then they where either in coma of some sort or hibernated for the period!

    OK, let’s get out our thinking caps now. If highly intelligent scientists over decades of research (which only higher animals have the capability of doing) have been able to show that our solar system is not the only system in the galaxy and even in the universe, would it be prudent to disregard this? I suppose disregarding this is probably the easier option! But if we decide not to disregard it, can we then suddenly extrapolate this finding and say when we die we end up in another galaxy? It seems that at the moment, instant, split second that a person finally passes on, it’s as if a wall of incomprehensible size is made instantly between “this world” and “the next”. Maybe that’s why we cannot understand death as a whole.

    TBC
    Your comments welcomed
    Hi TBC,Learning SOUL TRAVEL is a sure way to personally find out what lies beyond death.Why don't you go to your local library and pick a book on ECKANKAR.
    There is a book titled PAST LIVES,DREAMS AND SOUL TRAVEL By HAROLD KLEMP.You may find it very useful on the subject.
    You can visit www.eckankar.org for more information.
    Last edited by Kwame Nyame; 25th February 2011 at 10:45 PM.

  4. #4

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    Honestly this is a subject i never think about. May be it's because I'm still alive and have too much on my plate already. If the accounts from near death experiences are anything to go by,then I believe there is some real ish happening out there in the world hereafter.

  5. #5
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    Mega,
    I know many people prefer not to think about it. It’s not precisely the best or most interesting topic to discuss but if most people would see it as just another hot topic, it shouldn’t be that difficult. I guess the take on this via the discussion route is a less daunting but a more curiously defining approach. They say "life is a journey". What usually lies after the journey?
    To be cont’d …………..

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    Chapter 1, welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing.

    Death is the inevitable consequence that befalls us all, the fragility of existence. What lies after the journey is a great unknown that will continue to elude us until eternity. For me, Life is to be lived and fortunately i will not be there when the end of me happens. My life will continue in the memories of those whose lives i graced.
    Last edited by Neo; 27th February 2011 at 04:40 PM.

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    In my young teens, I moved in with my parents in Kumasi at Asafo. It was a whole new experience for me as I used to live with my aunt in the quiet suburbs at tech. One of my earliest experiences of death was in this Asafo neigbourhood. When someone dies, they displayed the body for everyone to see. One time, I think it was an old woman who died next house to my best friend Collin's crib. I knew how old and dirty that house was. On the wake keeping night, I followed some people who went to see the body. I realised, it was on display at the kitchen which used to be dirty, black from the smoke.. But this time, it had being painted blue and it looked like a new room which had just being constructed. When I looked down, I saw an old woman's body dressed in white (like a wedding dress). Just looking at that thing, I knew, even in my young teenage mind, I knew almost instantly that the thing lying there wasn't the old woman. I just knew something very significant had left this flesh we call body. I looked at the people wailing and thinking, is this normal? How could you be crying around an empty body? I kept looking how beautiful the kitchen looked, they did an amazing job. Then I walked out. Interesting thing I had just witnessed! Over the years I would see more dead bodies and knew something wasn't right. Something that carried the body around was gone.

    It took a while but I started reading books. The first topic I tackled was to know where and what happens after death. Then I realised there was no death. From many accounts, reports, past life regressions/hypnosis, I realised to be dead, one was more alive than when in these bodies. No wonder Jesus in the Gnostic Gospels called the body a prison or poverty. But reading about others experiences wasn't enough, until I felt my own immortality several times. I'm saying felt because its a feeling, a feeling that comes in many forms, visual/seeing, being.......... words fail me....

    You die every night you sleep, sleep is the cousin of death or in Twi, wo nim wuo ah, hw3 nna (if you dnt kno death, look at sleep).
    When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important.
    .........Jiddu Krishnamurti

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    Some interesting contributions there Q lypse!

    Yes, I have heard the phrase ‘sleep is death’s cousin’ before and it’s certainly an interesting route to take when trying to make sense of what happens when you ‘finally do sleep’. Have you seen the movie Inception? Now that’s something which is linked to what we are discussing here! When you dream, you do not no when it started, you just realise you’re in a dream; and the longer you dream the better you can control what happens in them. Amazing concept. The size of the Universe is outrageously infinite and it makes me realise that our time on earth is a smidgen of what really lays ahead. A phrase which the master put forward while on his mission even confirms this: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Author and the Finisher”. This suggests we came from a source, need to go through this journey called life, and then we head off to another place which is hopefully a better one. It’s funny how he makes no mention of what happens in between and only says he is the Alpha and Omega. I guess he didn’t want to get involved with it or he thought spoon feeding only occurs during the Alpha and Omega phases.

    In relation to the original discussion, we were trying to make some sense of the meaning and the link between this life and the next. Just side tracking a little here; I find it extremely difficult and almost incomprehensible to understand how anyone could suggest that there is nothing, absolutely nothing after one passes. Despite all the spiritual/paranormal activities/experiences and mind blowing science which we are fortunate to be a part of…………….

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    Moderator Q' lypse's Avatar
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    Chapter 1, before one suggests where one goes after the body ceases to operate, one must ask where was I before I was born into a body. Doesn't it make sense that you go to where you came from?
    When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important.
    .........Jiddu Krishnamurti

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    Certainly Mousier Q!

    Hence why I have blended in the section about Alpha and Omega…….
    What lies before and after this journey as highlighted by Neo, (27th Feb) will continue to elude us until eternity. Although I agree with it, I do not in its entirety. I think knowledge has evolved so far that although we do not really know why or how a single cell chooses to become an ear or an eye or even a strand of hair, we still understand the processes involved to make it arrive at its God given task. We are yet to overcome the barricade which prohibits us from understanding such wonders as how a milli ampere of electricity can bring a whole foetus to life in a mother’s womb. Call me optimistic but I think the time is close, very close. Probably in our life time! …………………

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    Moderator Q' lypse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter1 View Post
    Certainly Mousier Q!

    Hence why I have blended in the section about Alpha and Omega…….
    What lies before and after this journey as highlighted by Neo, (27th Feb) will continue to elude us until eternity. Although I agree with it, I do not in its entirety. I think knowledge has evolved so far that although we do not really know why or how a single cell chooses to become an ear or an eye or even a strand of hair, we still understand the processes involved to make it arrive at its God given task. We are yet to overcome the barricade which prohibits us from understanding such wonders as how a milli ampere of electricity can bring a whole foetus to life in a mother’s womb. Call me optimistic but I think the time is close, very close. Probably in our life time! …………………
    I'm on my way, almost there
    When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important.
    .........Jiddu Krishnamurti

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    Keep the ideas coming. I am enjoying picking your brains.

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    Learn to die daily as St Paul said in the Christian Bible.You cannot read someone's NDE and say you have tasted death.Sleep and Dream are good start.But they are mostly unconscious.Learn to consciously leave your clay temple now.

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    The argument “can it really be as simple as all that?” is a particularly weak one as it fails to address what's so simple about an organic organism loosing its self-propulsion and sustainability. Also, the correct conclusion should not be disregarded because of your personal feelings on it's simplicity or complexity, as your personal feelings are irrelevant to reality.

    “If we start from a simple notion that humans are not as simple as animals and the fact that we have extraordinary capabilities in comparison to other animals, could anything else surrounding our capabilities and existence be that simple?”
    First, animals are hardly simple. Second, the extraordinary capabilities you speak of can be reduced to the conscious mind and we're not the only organism with a conscious mind, simply the one with the most advanced...currently. The conscious human mind has also been extraordinarily short lived when considering the duration of evolutionary organic material. The argument that absolute death cannot be true simply because we're so complex, have made it so far and are therefore entitled to something better does not hold up. In sort, just because you want it to be a certain way and cannot see the justice in survivalism doesn't mean the adverse must be true. It more points to your inability to deal with the concept of dying.

    Lets not go with just Richard Dawkins, as he's still alive and is a target for growing ideological objections to his often sound arguments. Rather, lets consider the counter thesis with the man we contribute to discovering more about the nature of physical existence than any other.
    “I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.” -Albert Einstein

    “Ridiculous egotisms” seems to encapsulate so many who wonder what happens to them after death. The constant of religion is that some sort of god actually cares about our existence. Even when seeking to prove the existence of a god, there is no correlation between human desires and the motives of such an entity, which by our standards would be hopelessly complex. The traits which we view as "good" are those which feel good to us, make those around us feel good; not always in a carnal fashion yet always in a way in keeping with the elements of survival (even when self-sacrifice is involved, as it relates to group survival). The contradiction of so many beliefs is that such a complex god would not be encumbered by the limitations of survival, and would therefore derive its actions or inactions from variant sources. Love, hate, envy or revenge would seem inescapably small to such a being. In such a light, the fate of organic material is difficult to consider, other than as a byproduct, or a Russellian accidental collocation of atoms.

    What you mean by life after death is an extension of your consciousness and a continuation of what it means to be you. What's so special about the conscious mind? I would say it's special because it allots us a sense of contemplation and self. It allows exploration. However, others use it to contrive a means of personal entitlement. One could also view it as a mere byproduct of evolution, the result of expanding memory, and interactions between those layered memories in a series of hypothetical intermediaries.

    Wishful thinking is a common human element for those who cannot deal with the reality of their situation. The preferred survival mechanism of susceptible humans is to devise a belief system in which they, as conceptualizing individuals, play a key role in a universe where some benevolent force revels in its creation of humans and thereafter crowns them on a throne of particular and vital centrality, which is self-deluded masturbation at best.

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    In order for there to be an afterlife, some part of you would have to survive death.

    When you die, your physical self ceases to function. This means your brain, your nervous system, your eyes, your ears, your nose etc... cease to function.

    We know that memory is stored within the brain. If the brain ceases to function, you no longer have memory.

    We can trace instincts, and emotions to different centers of the brain. If the brain ceases to function, then once again we lose the ability to have these instincts or emotions.

    Cognitive thought also takes place in the brain, and like the others I mentioned would be impossible without the brain.

    In fact, there are conditions in which the brain is damaged and we can witness what happens when parts of the brain cease to function. Alzheimer's for example causes people to lose their memory.

    So the question is, if some part of you did survive after death, would it even be you?

    There would be no thought, no emotions, and no memory. You wouldn't be able to see (no eyes) or even process sight (no living nerve cells).

    Essentially, what you experience after death is the same as what you experience before birth. Nothing.

    Therefore, unless you can point to some specific part of a person that exists outside of the body, and could continue on after death then the only logical conclusion is that there is almost certainly no afterlife.

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    Neophyte Raven Jake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intellectual Pirate View Post
    no afterlife.
    Thank you for restating my nuanced thesis less skillfully.

    The correct answer garnished with personal assumptions and logical leaps paints it as fallible. Addressing such an argument, it would be easy to claim the adverse.
    Last edited by Raven Jake; 6th March 2011 at 10:52 AM.

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    CLAIMING THE ADVERSE IS A POSSIBILITY THROUGH INFINITY KWAKU ANANSE LOGIC...

    Alright... Let's give non-existence a cosmological connotation and use the universe as a fulcrum for explicating afterlife through infinity logic.

    1. If you assume that the universe will at some point expand to a point wHere no matter will have an effect on any other matter or energy in the universe and everything will stop moving (because matter and energy moving through space is still an event), then you're saying that the universe will essentially die. That it will be inactive without end. Right?

    My answer to that, very quickly, is that you cannot have an end to infinity. Infinity is one point whereas a "very long time" is a linear string that exists within the point of infinity. Everything that is happening now in space and time, must happen forever or we couldn't be here now. If you think that the universe will die or collapse on itself, that's fine though, it doesn't conflict with my idea though because like I've said, infinity doesn't end, it is infinite, and if we're here now we'll be here forever, just as infinity is forever. If the universe ceases to change at some point and it must reach the linear equivalent that we understand it to be now again, then there is a higher nature that will reset the universe to it's linear beginning through some means. Anyhow

    2. If you look at existence as a calculation, with numbers being matter and mathematics being the laws of physics, time being the change of one number to the next, it doesn't seem as radical an idea, that all of what is now could easily duplicated in infinity. Existence works like a machine, laws governed by a higher level of existence, and that one too, has a higher existence, and so on. The only thing that hinders a simple grasp of this concept is our consciousness and how we expect a final existence by which everything is governed but itself, which would be immediately erroneous (and is the reason why we cannot think this).

    It really is something that I should be working on more, but I don't see any great importance in thinking that the universe is nothing and something all at once governed by something and nothing all at once and how time will continue indefinitely and we'll all live our shitty lives over and over... It's not meaningful to anyone, even scientists who are looking for answers... they would just give up and say "Science is bull, and we'll never learn anything because human consciousness cannot understand infinity, and that's what we're dealing with on every level of existence except with our consciousness (which too, we deal with but not seemingly)"

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    Quote Originally Posted by raven jake View Post
    The preferred survival mechanism of susceptible humans is to devise a belief system in which they, as conceptualizing individuals, play a key role in a universe where some benevolent force revels in its creation of humans and thereafter crowns them on a throne of particular and vital centrality, which is self-deluded masturbation at best.
    lol, hahahaa
    When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important.
    .........Jiddu Krishnamurti

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    Quote Originally Posted by Intellectual Pirate View Post
    CLAIMING THE ADVERSE IS A POSSIBILITY THROUGH INFINITY ...
    No, I just picked the words 'no afterlife' for a quick symbol for your entire argument. I play devils advocate often when I see the loopholes in the arguments of those I happen to agree with.

    You're addressing consciousness and that must be defined in evolutionary terms, as 'truth' and the conscious mind serve no survival function and should therefore not have evolved. Plantinga's famous example was that of a tiger. If you believe that you and a tiger are in a race, and you run from the tiger, you have survived without truth. If you actually want to be eaten and you think the best way to achieve that is by running, you have also achieved the same result. There are endless ways in which truth plays no part in any sort of evolutionary role, and therefore is not even a secondary trait. How is it then that the conscious mind develops with the quality of truth?

    In the light of consciousness, one must address the possibility that naturalism and evolution are mutually exclusive ideas. The intelligent theist would then claim that if you believe in evolution, you therefore believe in God, otherwise your claims are inconsistent.
    Last edited by Raven Jake; 7th March 2011 at 03:07 AM.

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    I don't have the capacity to disprove predictive, supernatural, hypothetical scenarios. It could very well be the case that our souls retain memory and identity after death. But just because I can't disprove something doesn't mean that it does exist.

    I can't disprove the proposition that there is an immaterial gnome in the Andromeda galaxy that tills soil for a living and exports it to other planets in the form of comets. But both your and my examples are simply unlikely.

    However, it has been observed, and it is demonstrable that if the left hemisphere of our brain is damaged, then we lose our notion of self in relation to "everything else". It is also demonstrable that if our brain in general is damaged, we lose our memory - short term or longterm.

    So, we know that identity and memory are inextricably connected to our functioning brains. And even if there is an infinite realm, the very nature of such a realm is counter-intuitive to identity. For there is no part of infinity. There just is. Believing that the soul harbors our memories and our identity doesn't make sense when we juxtapose that belief with the above.

    Human beings are intelligent. But our decisions are normally centered around how we are going to survive, the quality of our survival, the quality of life we provide for our children, we are concerned with how we treat strangers (filoxenia), and how we treat the environment - ensuring that it is stable, safe and productive for posterity.

    These are concerns that fundamentally invalidate any belief in the afterlife. Everything we do on this planet - in practice - expresses the fundamental notion that we know that this physical existence, the thing you call "I" or "self" is all that there is. Human living is enough evidence of that.

    And this has nothing to do with me or anyone like me wanting to shirk responsible living. It is quite the opposite. When we put aside the notion of the afterlife, we are forced to become culpable in how we treat each other, our environment, and how we ensure our future on this planet. And this culpability is not contingent on our prospective existence during an afterlife.

    Playing the Devil's advocate would make your response an empirical falsity and a factual presupposition totally misplacing your argument.
    Last edited by Intellectual Pirate; 7th March 2011 at 07:31 AM.

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    Don't think we're on the same page. On the contrary, playing devils advocate to the best of your abilities is a great method to validate or debunk your own ideas if they were never correct in the first place. There wasn't any deception involved as I informed you before hand of such an intention. I merely took aim at you because you restated my argument in a logically fallible, dumbed down and unnecessary manner.
    If you seek out some mouth breather in the pews to argue with, or if you seek such an argument at all, then your own viewpoints will not be fully developed when you meet the person capable of giving you a run for your money. And logically, if they do so, you should reconsider your views as you would hope for no less of them.

    I didn't present myself as a Christian philosopher debunking your presumptions, but that would be very possible. First, I'm saying I agree with you. Second, your arguments are flawed.

    (I can't disprove the proposition that there is an immaterial gnome)
    That's a convenient and lazy argument that simply disregards that there is a valid counter argument. A first mover possibility is not a far fetched notion. It's stating that material and energy began with sentience, or it did not. As we cannot know the answer to such a question while our butts are thoroughly secured to computer chairs, both possibilities must be taken into account. The probability that a “first mover” is the god of any religion is too small for serious consideration, as the concept of a human-centric universe is simply too absurd and convenient as it's observable function is one of dispelling our concerns and fears.

    "However, it has been observed, and it is demonstrable that if the left hemisphere of our brain is damaged, then we lose our notion of self in relation to "everything else". It is also demonstrable that if our brain in general is damaged, we lose our memory - short term or longterm."

    Are you postulating that consciousness is located in the left brain by saying its not observable in its absence? Because it's also not observable without a heart. Observed by whom? This is a presumptions bit of pseudo science which presents itself as a haughty fact. Where is consciousness, what is it and is consciousness the self? If consciousness is not capable of being located (and it has not been) what does that say about its nature?

    Removing various sections of the brain and looking for consciousness to go away is hardly identifying or clarifying its physicality or the nature of self. What is the subjective experience of a severely lobotomized patient? What is it like to be a horse? A bat? There are an experiences accompanying such perspectives, and they are not ones we are capable of understanding.

    These are unhelpful phrases: in general, it's been seen that, fundamentally, it has been shown, been demonstrated, so we know that...

    In short, support your argument rather than simply proclaim it is the correct one.
    Last edited by Raven Jake; 7th March 2011 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Jake View Post
    Are you postulating that consciousness is located in the left brain by saying its not observable in its absence? Because it's also not observable without a heart. Observed by whom? This is a presumptions bit of pseudo science which presents itself as a haughty fact. Where is consciousness, what is it and is consciousness the self?
    Polemic sophistry at its best.

    I shall seek totally discordant questions that buttress my standpoint, create the illusion that they somehow correlate with the logical flow of events, hoping observers buy into the Houdini rhetorical "masturbation".

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    Now now children, lets not show any characteristics of academic chauvinism. We only then become a bunch of educated derelicts trying to disprove ‘simple’ suggestive methodologies. Criticism is of course an important ingredient to verify the strength of an argument but why the hustle and bustle? BREATH IN, now exhale…… and start again! Over!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter1 View Post
    Now now children, lets not show any characteristics of academic chauvinism. We only then become a bunch of educated derelicts trying to disprove ‘simple’ suggestive methodologies. Criticism is of course an important ingredient to verify the strength of an argument but why the hustle and bustle? BREATH IN, now exhale…… and start again! Over!
    Is this really the kind of mindless, black hole of crap you say in the absence of offering anything to the conversation? If you read closely I'm not arguing with Pirate. In fact, I probably like him. Otherwise, I wouldn't say anything.

    "Lets get out our thinking caps now" and "now now children" is the kind of up your own *** garbage people say who I probably don't like. You offer too much passing credibility to institutions who have not earned and do not deserve it. You do not counter or engage because those surface level musings will be exposed for what they are.

    Try that again with an actual contribution. The high ground seems far less appealing when there are a bunch of hedonistic, snide bitches lounging on it like a suede beanbag.
    Last edited by Raven Jake; 7th March 2011 at 03:25 PM.

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